Lima Judging issue

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Permalink Reply by Smith on May 18, 2009 at 9:49pm

You're right about me not going to the seminar but i didnt state anything about the if you are cleaning and coming back thing. I myself however read that on here in the other discussion i started along with read the rules online here. My thing is that a lot has changed on my truck within reason since last year, a lot of it in the interior yet i wasnt even given the time of day. Im not saying even if i was judged i would of won, however i think i would of as i have many times before.The thing is the fact that i never was judged in the first place even after you said you would be back for our class later on.

Rick i think you know who Chris Huss is, he is a friend of mine that i have parked with for several years. He usually BS's with you every year while you judge his truck about being an engineer. If you dont know who he is then here is a picture of his truck http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a142/Smith454/Lima%2009/100_0276.jpg . I was standing there as you told him you would be back for his wifes truck and my own. I sat there around my truck for 8 hours along with Chris, Holly, and my girlfriend and you never once came back. At some point i walked to the bathroom while Chris and Holly waited and you judged an all black H3 that won an award but they said you never walked the two 4 spots over for Holly and I's vehicles. Our vehicles arent some hack jobs but represent the street class well. If we didnt then we wouldnt have won awards from you before. Im just irritated at the fact that i sat there the whole day waiting for you to hold to your word and be back like you stated. If i would of known i wasnt going to be given the time of day i would of went and enjoyed the other aspects of the show from cruising, to the shows. Just seems like a waste of time to be told that you would be back when you never showed.

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Permalink Reply by Trained Judging Squirrel on May 18, 2009 at 11:57pm

Smith,

Did you read my response above and the example I gave? I did look at your truck on Saturday maybe not the way that you wanted but I did. I cannot combine the four classes when I go out to judge, but I make mental and pencil notes on vehicles all day long. After I finished the Modified Class I went to judge the Street Class (the second hardest class to judge). I started where I stopped with Modified, at the opposite side of the fairgrounds that you were located at. There were only four (4) possible awards you could have won GM, Paint, Interior, Engine/Compartment.

Best GM - Black/Gold Jimmy Spotless, Lift off top, painted to resemble tears and rips in the sheet metal. You could eat off any part of this truck. Parked behind where registration was 10 years ago.
Best Paint - Green ’79 Chevy, Dale Earnhart mural on the tailgate, Taz mural on the frt. Fenders, as close to flawless paint as you can get on a Street Class vehicle. Parked along the road leading to the pond.
Best Interior – ‘03 Dodge parked where we used to park our trailers, 12 years ago. 42” Plasma screen w/mechanical raise and lower (hide) feature with 308 Stainless Steel enclosure, hand laid fiberglass sub woofer enclosure for four (4) 15” Subs.
Best Engine/Compartment – Gold Ford with Lambo doors and a ton of plating (parked by the pond), you could eat off his engine…literary, that’s how clean it is.

You would not have taken anything from any of these individuals no matter how long and hard I looked at your truck. What you don’t realize or you choose not to recognize is this is a new process for me too. One thing I will never tell a participant in the future is I will be back, because I may not have to.

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Permalink Reply by PIGG on May 19, 2009 at 7:46am

ok. this is starting to make since now, I guess next time I will make the meeting. I believe you referred to me in above response winning best paint modified, just to clear confusion that was my dads truck. Hes the extended cab on 49s, mines a reg. cab on 46s.

Also, Can you address the question about doing away with the 1st 2nd and 3rd places? and Why are participant choices awards gone as well? I mean, used to there were ton of awards given, and now sitting thru an award ceremony it was quick. I think the 1st, 2nd, 3rd needs to come back to motivate people who didnt take first to keep building and move up, help the sport grow. With just "best" winners, if you never hear your same called 2nd or 3rd, you dont know how close you are too winning.



Thanks for the quick responces Rick.

Zach Pigg

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Permalink Reply by Trained Judging Squirrel on May 19, 2009 at 8:31am

I realize that I am the most visible and accessible person with a Family Events Shirt on in the Show-N-Shine area at a Jamboree. I try to make myself available always, at a Jamboree, or here on this site, and if you search this site you can even find a personal e-mail address of mine. This is for participants to send pictures of their vehicles to me, to find out what class their vehicle is in or what class it will be in after a planned modification.

I do this to help all the participants out with any judging question they many have, evidently sometimes that means walking around with a target on my back, so be it. The sizes, color, shape, and amount of a plaques, jackets and merchandise to be given away and/or earned is not my responsibility. I am given an award sheet list that I have to have completed, typed and copied in triplicate before Sunday at 3:15. I do not make any of the purchasing decisions. Those decisions are made in Indianapolis by people other than myself.

But I do agree with the fact you may not know how well you did against a competitor, but you can always ask me on Sunday when I have a free moment. We can walk around your truck to see where you can improve and strength up the weak points. And if you have the stomach for it we can walk around your competitions truck and find out why he spanks you at every Jamboree, that’s not aimed at you personally Zach that goes for everyone.

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Permalink Reply by PIGG on May 19, 2009 at 9:25am

Sounds Good, Rick. Sorry for the confusion. See ya at Springfield, ill

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Permalink Reply by Smith on May 26, 2009 at 9:17pm

Really, i dont realize, or choose not to recognize is that this is a new process for you too? Hmm if thats the case why would i have emailed you a message and then posted it up on this website for others to see and also learn from? Here lets take an example of something that you posted in that particular discussion which is also confirmed by the show and shine awards rules

"There are also some awards open to all participants: Awards of Excellence (10 awards), Daily Driver (5 awards), Photographers Choice (3 awards), Best Under Construction, Best Personalized Plate, Best Club Attendance, and various Staff Picks."

Really so i couldnt have won the Daily Driver award. I think my truck fits into that category since it is driven everyday that i can as long as there isn't golf ball sized Hail coming down or a Tornado about the touchdown. How about Pigg or Deviant? Couldnt they have won the same awards, or even better yet for them one of the 10 "Awards of Ecellence"? Heck even the Hillbilly Deluxe truck had a pretty cool license plate "FKNBG1" but you prolly didnt notice that when you "walked" by either. Maybe if you took the time on either of our trucks we could have won either of those awards but then again if you looked inside some of the other trucks that you decided to "look" at or "judge" they still could have very well beaten us out too but none of us will no because you chose not to judge us. Dont deny it as that is exactly what you did as well. I saw you drive by on your golf cart and just look at my truck as you kept right on going. Kind of hard for you to say that i couldn't have won anything when you just do a drive by and dont look under the hood or in the interior or do you fail to realize that OR just choose not to? Its like another participant whom ive never met before said to me "did a totally stock hummer win an award? If so thats messed up". Kind of ironic that you chose to judge a totally stock vehicle and not Pigg's or I's or the many other vehicles that you did the same to, isn't it? No, this wasnt meant to take anything away from the owner of that H3 either as he is a very nice guy and owned a very well built suburban in the past. Sure it rained on saturday which admit it or not, influenced your judging but you guys chose to come to us this year and not us too you. If it was the old style judging you would have had to judge every vehicle that come through that line, whether you thought they "deserved" it or not. Seems to me you just took the easy way of doing this new judging style.

Even on the vehicles you thought "deserved" to be judged you still didnt take any time. You judged Chris' vehicle quicker than the amount of time that it took me to wipe the spray detailer off my door. He even said you prolly weren't there for over a minute. Seriously one minute without even opening both doors or looking into extended cab and you can judge a vehicle. Woe thats amazing almost as amazing as judging a vehicle by just walking by it or driving by it on your golf cart. If you really did go around the whole Fairgrounds 9 times on cart and on foot, im sure you could have accomplished just as much if you looked over more vehicles or just spent more time on the ones you did look over. Could have cut that down to prolly 4 times and been done with it. However if you really did go around a total of 9 times then im sure i probably would of seen you in my area more than the one time that i did when you judged Chris. Again seriously less than a minute to judge a vehicle? you could have easily missed something and Chris could have won a totally different award like best GM instead.

What have i learned from this years Lima Jamboree? Not to wait around on a judge all day even if he says he will be back. He wont keep his word and no you did not come around to my truck after doing the modified class or Hollie's. Sure i didn't go to the jamboree just for the awards. I went to hang out with friends and check out other trucks, and events but its hard to do that while waiting on a judge to return all day. Other things i learned; The judging doesnt mean much anymore, and after this post my truck will probably never be judged ever again, even if you do think it "deserves" to be.

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Permalink Reply by Sam Jimmer on May 27, 2009 at 9:14am

Smith, seriously, you are complaining about the same people winning….have you really stopped to take a look at these trucks that have been winning or at least won this past weekend? Have you really paid any attention to the quality, time, and labor that these men put/have into their trucks? Have you taken a moment when Rick has stated to go and ask him his opinion about what to do for better scoring? Yes, according to what he says, it may be painful, but if you are truly interested in actually walking away with an award, you have to bite the bullet, listen to what he says, and correct your problem. Do you have minimal rust? “Oh, nobody will see it“, you say to yourself….if its being judged…yes, someone will see it. Have you improved anything on your vehicle lately or is it the same set up you had back in 1998 or longer??? Or, better yet, you admit right on this website that you drive your vehicle daily. So that means, when a judge comes around to critique your truck, it is immaculate???? I think not!!! Not a daily driver. Get real. Come on guys, stop the bellyaching and do something about it. And yes, those same guys winning, were the same guys who attended Rick’s seminar…no not everyone won something, but those who truly want something, make sure that they are there….every time. (Changes or no changes…every show, every year!)

First, at the previous shows, there were complaints because no one could cruise because the judging line was backing everything up….now you complain because the judge comes to you and you have to sit there….Smith, this is for you…go cruise. I’ve read your previous blogs. It seems you want it all. I think you should pick one or the other….and it seems to point to cruising. If you really feel that you have something worthy of an award, then just sit parked. You can’t have fun with your friends wiping down the truck, eating hot dogs, and maybe seeing the Monster Trucks run? Smith, you wrote, “Either way me and the many other not only paid our fee to be judged,” no, you just paid your registration fee. There was no fee to be judged this year.

And just like Glen stated, I wouldn’t want to be Rick either. He does have a lot on his shoulders. He is responsible for looking at each vehicle that has a card….and did everyone have a card posted? I saw Rick ask the guy next to me, “Where’s your participant information?”. How long have you people been coming to these shows?

By the way Smith…give it up. Really, you are looking like a fool now. Poor Sport, Sore Loser, Big Crybaby. Go out, take a look at that truck. At the Lima show where there are thousands of vehicles, can you honestly say your deserves to win something????? I saw your pictures on your blog….I really don’t think so…not at Lima or any of the big shows as far as that goes. Give it up dude. You are making yourself look stupid.

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Permalink Reply by Psycho 86 on May 27, 2009 at 1:52pm

Sam I ask you one question as you call Smith a poor sport ,etc..........Should a bone stock 2009 Hummer 3 be a winner ?? Out of all those thousands of trucks you stated were better than Smiths. There were no vehicles better than a stock truck to win an award ??
Hmmmmm.................I suggest you rethink before you speak as well.Before you question my knowledge of show trucks and Jambos... I have been going to Jambos since 1992 and have won numerous awards (including runner up Grand Champion in the modified category at Lima) so I know what trucks need to win and have been to the judging meetings.

There are some very tough trucks who deserve to win consistently I agree. But I also think some vehicles are missed (or overlooked).
There are always two sides to every story, so Smith exspessing his concerns /complaints are valid just as yours are. But in none of his posts was he calling anyone anything (unlike you). This is an open forum where posts good or bad can be left for all to read.
Reply all you want but leave the name calling for the children.

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Permalink Reply by Deviant on May 27, 2009 at 3:09pm

i'm not really sure where you came from or what your input means by attacking smith like that but i think that is retarded. i can see both sides to the story. i went to the judging meeting. i listened to what he said and am kinda confused about who won what and why in the lower categorys. i have made major changes to my vehicle over the winter and i didnt get an award, am i upset, kinda, but if there where better vehicles than mine then congrats to them, i have already spoke to rick about reviewing what i have done to see if it has helped or hurt me. so im trying to play the game just like the rest of the winners....ive won these shows before and know what it takes just like psycho said, but i just need to get that lil extra bit.

maybe smith and rick need to talk in person instead or airing it out on here but sometimes thats not always possible, but it is a public forum and evedentily there are some things he is just not satisfied with, its understandable. you learn as you go.

but to you on a more personal note have you won any awards before? do you even care about judging? so your gonna bash a guy that if i recall has won some awards before and who's main concern is that he thinks he didn't get looked at, reguardless if his truck was good enough to win or not, his main concern was that he was overlooked. and your gonna say he a baby.....your whining about more stupid stuff than he is. you can honestly tell me that you, OR ANYONE, for that fact, if they felt they were overlooked wouldn't be happy about it, REGUARDLESS if they got an award or not.

ive bit my tounge for long enough, and if i am truely wrong than i will retract my statement...............the place that i parked in was a NOT SO GOOD spot for a show and shine vehicle, not to say there werent other nice vehicle around me but i only saw rick come buy that area once. he looked at mine and a few next to me...now with that being said did he need to come to that area again, not necessarily if there werent any other trucks that could knock off his picks.....but if he said that he went around mulitple time, i didnt see it, my truck never moved till we left that night and i was by it the whole time

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Permalink Reply by Trained Judging Squirrel on May 27, 2009 at 2:03pm

Let me say this first, this is the last response Aaron Smith. I have already had discussions with this individual in past posts and he will just keep rehashing the same points after he has gotten solid answers.

(Really, i dont realize, or choose not to recognize is that this is a new process for you too? Hmm if thats the case why would i have emailed you a message and then posted it up on this website for others to see and also learn from?)

The “new process” statement I made pertains only to the fact I told you I would be back to take a closer look at your truck later, and later realized I no longer had to. I apologize that you waited, and I will not make this statement and mistake again. Your earlier posted messages had one theme “I want to cruise, I want to cruise and I want to cruise, so let me know when I have been judged because I want to cruise”. We went through a long drawn out process of why I can’t mark every vehicle, etc, etc, etc.

(Really so i couldnt have won the Daily Driver award. I think my truck fits into that category since it is driven everyday that i can as long as there isn't golf ball sized Hail coming down or a Tornado about the touchdown.)

Quite frankly the short answer is no, I would rather not be so blunt. 1900+ vehicles on the grounds at Lima and they are all up fo r awards, that means that 2.89% will walk away with something the rest try harder next time. The amount of awards and the reasons why have already been addressed by Ron. But what I am hearing here is that the owners that did work, prepare, clean and receive an award did not necessarily deserve it, because you did not receive one. You continue trying to insert yourself in front of a more deserving participant. I think you are arbitrarily making blanket statements without really knowing ANY facts. There are a lot of modified trailered vehicles trucks on the Lima fairgrounds, this means a lot of mods…nice mods.

(Really so i couldnt have won the Daily Driver award. I think my truck fits into that category since it is driven everyday… )

So did a five hundred (500) other vehicles at the Lima show.

(Heck even the Hillbilly Deluxe truck had a pretty cool license plate "FKNBG1" but you prolly didnt notice that when you "walked" by either.)

I know Travis (Hillybilly Deluxe) and have talked to him a couple of times, very nice guy, really nice truck. I also remember when the Mozzi’s first built that truck. I have seen his plate and many others like it over the years. Next time you are at a “Family Events” (key word Family) awards ceremony look around at how many small children there are seated in the grand stands or walking nearby. I would much rather hear NVR ENUF (the plate that won) read over a PA system than FKNBG1. That is why plates like that will never win at any of our events.

(Its like another participant whom ive never met before said to me "did a totally stock hummer win an award? If so thats messed up". Kind of ironic that you chose to judge a totally stock vehicle and not Pigg's or I's…)

No, Pigg nor “I’s” (do you mean mine or me) could not have won “Best of the Rest”. The owner took “Best of the Rest” with his immaculate H3 in "Street Zero", no modifications. H3’s, H2’s, H1’s, Nissans, Toyotas, etc. are “Best of the Rest” even though technically the H3 it is now a GM product, for years it was not. Rather than create year breaks (when GM did/did not own Hummer) we decided to leave the Hummers in “Best of the Rest”.

(If it was the old style judging you would have had to judge every vehicle that come through that line, whether you thought they "deserved" it or not. Seems to me you just took the easy way of doing this new judging style.)

(Even on the vehicles you thought "deserved" to be judged you still didnt take any time. You judged Chris' vehicle quicker than the amount of time that it took me to wipe the spray detailer off my door. He even said you prolly weren't there for over a minute.)


Seems like you are contradicting yourself, you are questioning why every vehicle on the fairgrounds can’t be judged. Have you done the math? I judge from 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM rain or shine...1900+ vehicles (Lima). That is 14 seconds per vehicle…without travel, lunch, rest room, etc. That is impossible to do so I took the way that would benefit the participants. Then you are questioning about too little time spent. I have judged Chris Huss’s truck 10 or more times, I know the truck very well. For me, one minute is about all I need. In the past have you ever been through my Judging Line, of course you haven’t. Have you been to one of my Judging Seminars, of course you haven’t. I have answered that question many times, it does not take an experienced judge long to evaluate a vehicle. I am also an ISCA judge and have been doing this for over 14 years.

The bottom line is you did not win “something”, the majority of participants at the Lima Jamboree didn’t. I maintain the owners that did, did so because they deserved it. I know you have probably put a lot of time, labor and hard earned cash into your truck and it shows, but so did/do thousands of other individuals. The least effective way to get what you want is go online and try to look for cracks in the system, and magnify what you think are flaws. I am a show judge, I am used to my decisions being dissected, and that is why I do not make them effortlessly. I am a very approachable person and have talked to thousands of owners about their vehicles and the improvements they have made or can make to compete. At the next event you attend, talk to me rather than about me, in the long run it will get you a lot closer to your goals. Nuff said.

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Permalink Reply by intimidator4x4 on May 27, 2009 at 7:06pm

I have heard enough, you gave street class champion to a truck that has his whole front suspension chromed except the springs, axle tubes and u-joints, 3 out of 16+ pieces, way more than 50% in a 24"X24" area, the rear is the same. And it has CUSTOM chrome plates on top of the springs front and rear, if you can buy those aftermarket, please let me know were I can get those. Plus it has a more than 6 inch long graphic on the lower portion of the doors all the way to the rear fenderwell. Looks like more than one area modified to me.

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Permalink Reply by Smith on June 1, 2009 at 12:20am

First off I’m going to say thanks to the other guys (Deviant, Psycho, Intimidator, and Pigg) that commented as this shows I’m not the only one that has had issues. Most of the participants at these shows either don’t come on here, or are afraid to voice any concerns due to fears of how it may affect their future judging’s. I myself, like Psycho, have gotten my hands dirty on a grand champion. In fact it won the 2007 and 2008 Modified Grand Champion at Lima along with multiple awards at Indy and other various shows. A big chunk of the suspension on this truck was bought off me, as they were parts that I gathered for a vehicle of my own, but decided the truck the parts were going into, was not worth it. The truck was my brothers 89 Maroon GMC stepside SAS’d on 49’s, which I’m sure you will remember. Now granted there was some changes to that truck that my brother made along with the help of our friend Jason at Kat Kustoms that made it that much more extreme. trust me if I currently had the money and wasn’t a college student that wasn’t putting in 40+ hours at work and many more hours at school along, I’m sure I could get something together that would definitely pull in some awards. Then even the things that I myself couldn’t do, I would be able to get done with the help of either my brother, or Kat Kustoms.
This has never been about whether or not I won an award, but more about the fact that I, along with many others were never judged. This is not just about me, but also about the many others whom, like me, took the time at the show to clean and prep their trucks. I’m just the example here and I can only talk from my own experience with my truck or the others that I have talked with. Here’s how a majority of the conversations I had with others went. I would ask if somebody around me or even across the way go judged. Some replied with a simple no, while many others went on about the same crap that I just posted so know I wasn’t talking “about you”. Many of them I told to bring it here so others could see and find out what happened but obviously they didn’t. This site is a public forum for Q&A about issues like this, if you can’t handle the repercussions and won’t listen to the participants concerns; well then you might as well drop this particular forum from the site. You’ve pretty much put yourself in a defensive position from the beginning and thus have brought this all upon yourself I have also seen this on a couple different online forums people saying the same stuff so I finally decided to post my experience here. As far as rehashing stuff, well you might want to re-read that past discussion. I made a total of 2 posts on in there, and not a single point did I rehash. However there was another participant that did rehash some points but only to offer suggestions and help that you didn’t want any part of. Oddly enough his name on here starts with an “S” like mine so maybe your reading comprehension that day was just a little……..off.

My point is this. You tell somebody you are going to judge them then you should. Whether it’s a rust bucket, mine, or something like Joyride or my brother’s old truck. A walk by doesn’t let you see what’s under the hood or in the cab, nor does it let you see the detail of anything else they may have done. To just walk by Pigg as he said you did is rude. He easily could have got one of those Daily Driver awards if you looked at it up close like I did at the show. Out of those 500 + vehicles you mention how many of them did you actually look at, probably very few which makes it impossible for the ones you didn’t look at to win anything. It almost sounds as if you just wondered around the grounds only picking just a few to look at and skipping 90% of the rest. As far as being through your judging line, I have won awards from you before and that was when the truck still had a lot of Lund stick on BS that I hadn’t removed yet, along with the cap that used to sit on it. Maybe that’s why you assume that I haven’t been through your line; you no longer recognize the truck. Maybe the fact you don’t recognize a truck means you should look at it. That seems very logical to me. I also went through your line last year and have since 2005 which was before I decided to paint dash pieces, add interior billet, put in a 6.5 inch screen, painted the frame, put in a bedrug, the list goes on and on. However since you didn’t look at my truck you didn’t notice these changes from just Indy of last year or notice the changes on the other many OTHER trucks at the show. You instead went to these trucks that you supposedly “know” instead of checking out many others. If you already know these trucks then what’s the point of checking them out. Go to the other trucks that you don’t know and acquaint yourself with them. BTW Chris Huss is a friend of mine and does have a very aesthetically pleasing modified truck. He was thrown in as I know him personally and his truck very well.
“But what I am hearing here is that the owners that did work, prepare, clean and receive an award did not necessarily deserve it, because you did not receive one. You continue trying to insert yourself in front of a more deserving participant. I think you are arbitrarily making blanket statements without really knowing ANY facts. There are a lot of modified trailered vehicles trucks on the Lima fairgrounds, this means a lot of mods…nice mods.”

Really, I’m saying that the others that prepared as well don’t deserve anything because I didn’t win an award? Sounds like that reading comprehension is slipping again. As far as a lot of nice modified Trailered vehicles, wouldn’t being trailered be a bit contradictory to the whole daily driver category? Seems so. As far as whomever mentioned me complaining about the same trucks winning (read it yesterday) , I haven’t been going to these shows enough to know who has won each year and never mentioned anything of that sort. As far as I know there has been new trucks winning each time. The fact that you subconsciously thought that and posted it on here must mean that it has been a problem in the past. Now I wonder why that might have been an issue……..

Here’s what it boils down to. You did a poor job at lima this year, whether it be due to weather constraints or just because you are now walking around you didn’t think anyone would notice if you skipped vehicles. You aren’t going to be able to handle this procedure by yourself and thus need to bring another judge or 2 along for help. One person that comes to mind is that taller older gentleman from the past. He really seemed to take the time to look the trucks over and give everyone their fair chance instead of just herding them through the line. I apologize if that person is reading this, as I don’t know your name and can’t refer to you personally. Imagine the mess at Indy, good luck with that on your own. Whether it’s judging via the line method of the past, or this new way, you are going to need help whether you admit it or not. Oh and no there is not enough said as this could go on for a very long time.

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